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Talk:Krogan
Testicles These secondary systems are capable of serving as back-ups in the event of damage to the primary biological structures (and also means krogan males have four testicles). Is the testicles comment fact or conjecture? Perhaps humans are the only species to possess 2 and more or less is common. Unless I missed something and it is explicitly stated somewhere that 2 is the norm, I move that the parenthetical be erased. :Speaking with Garrus about Dr. Saleon's lab, he mentions that the typical price is 10,000 credits for a transplant and 40,000 for a full set, meaning krogan have four testicles. I forget exactly when or what the options are for him to say it, but it's there. —Feauce 22:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC) ::You have to have completed one or more stages of the main storyline mission (can't remember exactly how many). Just talk to Garrus after each mission you complete. You should be talking to all your crew after every mission anyway, as many side quests, codex entries, experience points and interesting dialog experiences can be found. ::Since the player can say something along the lines of "Krogans have four testicles?" (I think) I assume that the comment is fact, and since Garrus offers no further information on the number of testicles of other races, I assume that the Krogans are different from the Turians at least. EliTe X HeRo 21:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC) :::That, and Wrex mentions during his story involving the asari mercenary that when the station's core went critical, "there was nothing left larger than a turian's right nut." So it could be assumed that turians have two testicles, but that's about the only reference I can think of at the moment. I would like to say, though, how odd it is to be seriously discussing this topic. o.O —Feauce 02:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC) ::::Unless, of course, turians have their testicles arranged in a row, in which case the far right one could be referred to as "a turian's right nut". Although you have probably correct in saying that they only have two. In my opinion, there can be no "normal" testicle count for the Milky Way's races as we do not have sufficient information. The asari probably have none; the krogan have four; humans have two; the rest are unknown. ::::I would say that the article need not mention a normal number of testicles at all. Simply state that the Krogan have four, and leave the rest off. We will see if this is sufficient in due course - if a user has questions, they will ask them here. EliTe X HeRo 11:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC) :::::"there was nothing left larger than a turian's right nut." This (I think) implies that turians have small testicles, because he said "turian". But this should go to 'turians' talk page... 19:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC) That's all I wanted in the first place. I'm not disputing the pfact that they do have four, I'm merely stating that the "extra" pair may not be extra. DaKroganKilla 8:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC) :Right then. Glad we could sort that out. EliTe X HeRo 16:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC) Blood Strange question, but what color do krogan bleed? I remember Skarr bleeding in Revelation, but I can't remember what color it was. I have a side project going on and I want to stay as canon as possible. Thanks. DaKroganKilla 12:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC) :Krogan blood is orange. If that is actually blood; it could also be their neuroconductive fluid that makes them impossible to paralyse (see the section on biology). --Tullis 19:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC) The Krogan blood is red cuz when you shoot gunt he bleeds red blood out of his lip 05:07, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Since a Cure is possible shouldn't we state that "unless a cure is found the Korgan will die off in a few generations" Seeing how their homeworld alone has 2.1 billion korgan not really. :The whole purpose of the genophage was to keep the population stable. They didn't want the population to drop to extinction nor have a baby boom. If you did any of Mordin's missions or talked to him in ME2, this is pretty much all he yaps about the entire game. Besides the population was growing before they applied the re-modified genophage. Also there could be a change if you saved the research on the cure from Mordin's Loyalty mission for ME3. --Lord0din69 06:34, March 10, 2010 (UTC) "grunt" http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1014897p1.html http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/14235013/mass-effect-2/videos/gcom09act_mass2_trl_081809.html your new Krogan buddy-Jio Freed 22:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC) hump All the krogans ive seen have had a large hump on there back, but all the grogans ive seen have been wearing armor. is that hump a real part of there body because it seems a little akward or is it part of there armor. :It's part of their body, and actually a sign of status. See Codex/Aliens:_Non-Council_Races#Krogan:_Biology and Krogan#Biology. --Tullis 17:16, September 13, 2009 (UTC) Lifespan Do they actually have a longer lifespan than the asari? 17:38, February 27, 2010 (UTC) That's pretty funny. The asari must've felt pretty bad when they started getting outlived. --Oblivion nerd 00:45, March 16, 2010 (UTC) :They live at least as long as an asari because what's-her-face on Illium mentions how you're in it for the long run in a relationship with a krogan. There are other hints in the game that they can live for at least 1,000 years. —ArmeniusLOD 17:57, February 27, 2010 (UTC) ::If you go by Okeer's dossier, then yes. "Millennia of combat experience" implies at last two thousand years. Matt 2108 17:59, February 27, 2010 (UTC) :::That's one thousand years Idontlikethenewskin 21:59, January 24, 2011 (UTC) ::::A "millennium" is one thousand years. "Millennia" is plural, as in multiple thousands of years. -- Commdor (Talk) 22:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC) Krogan Charge If enemy krogan get close to you, they'll charge. You don't want that. The krogan charge isn't as strong as it was back in ME1. Most of the time Grunt goes charging in he is most likely going to die afterwards, unless if its on a normal or lower setting. Also you usually can dodge a charge in ME2 with ease, unlike ME1 where it kept chasing a long distance, around corners and other obstacles. Hopefully in ME3 they re-buff the charge a bit so it isn't as easy to avoid. --Lord0din69 06:27, March 10, 2010 (UTC) Agreed! I almost laughed every time I side-stepped a charge! --Oblivion nerd 00:46, March 16, 2010 (UTC) :i have to agree on this as well. in me1 charge was pretty much an insta-kill ability on veteran or higher and if you saw a krogan it was always your primary target because of that. in me2 krogan are not that scary, they are just bullet sponges. Religion With Shaman, it is obvious that the Krogan have a shamanist religious basis. There is very likely a good corrilation between Krogans, and Native American, and other Shamanistic tribes(african springs to mind), though the full extent is lacking due to all are information comes from Shaman himself. Some reference of this needs to be added to the 'religion' section of the page, but I haven't been able to put it in such a way that makes enough sense to leave on the page. Skelethin 03:26, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :I wouldn't be so quick to say there's any sort of correlation between krogan (remember, don't capitalize it, and the plural of krogan is krogan, not krogans) and American Indians or African natives just because they have shamans. For starters, there aren't even that many similarities between American Indians and African natives. Beyond that, we don't know that the shamans operate in the same capacity. Saying that there's a correlation based solely on superficial matters like this is like me saying that there is very likely a good correlation between the drell and the Greeks, Romans, Norse, Slavs, Aztecs, and others, because they're all polytheistic. It just doesn't pass muster. SpartHawg948 03:52, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :: The nature of Shamanistic religions, which tend to focus on some aspect of their culture has a spiritual element that is important(grossly over simplified, I know) is the same, despite where they come from. What the focus is, and how they use/treat it, varies greatly. But it is still enough of a basis to mention it as a shamanistic religion, or at least shamanistic tendencies. Especially with the improtance of the role that Shaman has within the tribe. As the specifics of the practices are unmentioned, generalities are all that should be mentioned anyway. Skelethin 04:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :It would be if the Shaman had mentioned any sort of religious functions. I could be mistaken, but I don't recall him mentioning any such thing. All I recall is him stating that it's his duty to uphold the traditions and customs of his clan. SpartHawg948 04:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC) : That IS a shaman's role in a shamanistic society. It is why they are held in such high regard by the tribe, and consulted for advice by the leaders. That duty is the primary duty of ANY shaman in a shamanistic society. Thus why it should be added. Skelethin 04:06, April 12, 2010 (UTC) ::However as Spart said, I also can't remember the Shaman mentioning anything about krogan religion apart from ti was hist duty to uphold the traditions of his clan. He also mentioned rights and rituals that he had to go thorugh every morning and evening but that's about it. Lancer1289 04:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC) The primary duty of any shaman in a human shamanistic society. Given the Urdnot Shaman's lack of any apparent religious role (as seen in-game), his lack of any statements that he is a religious figure, and his dislike of traditional behaviors and attitudes, it seems that krogan shamans may be somewhat different. Observation supersedes supposition. I'm working off of observations here, taking the Shamans words and actions as evidence. After all, what we see on-screen is the ultimate canon, especially when the only argument to the contrary is based on human social practices which aren't applicable. Also, an interesting side note. It would appear that shamanism isn't common in Africa, as African traditional religions and shamanism are considered two distinct forms of religion. SpartHawg948 04:13, April 12, 2010 (UTC) : Isnt shaman a broad term? isnt it like saying warrior, or priest. I dont ever recall is having a specifi purpose, other than being a tribal religious leader, what the heck does this word mean. ralok 04:16, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Another thought that occurred to me after looking at the article. Doesn't Wrex say in ME that the krogan don't really have much in the way of religious beliefs? SpartHawg948 04:18, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :(edit conflict) I put this here because of Spart's last comment, but yes he does when you talk about the hallows, he says "its about as sacred as any krogan place can get". Was just watching that part because of replaying ME as I go to get information. Convineant yes. Lancer1289 04:22, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Indeed! Almost a bit too convenient... I suspect nefarious intent! :P SpartHawg948 04:23, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :No nefarious intent, just needed to talk to Wrex again and I just happened to be where he tells that story with his father. Lancer1289 04:25, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Apparently there's a new procedure around here. When multiple users are challenging the validity of your assertion, apparently it's now standard procedure to disregard valid objections and just go ahead and insert speculation in the article anyways. Go figure. SpartHawg948 04:38, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Apparently Shaman's position as overseer of the Rites of the Clan has no religious connotations at all, despite all evidence to the contrary. Thank you for disillusioning me to my rather first-hand knowledge of shamanistic societies. Skelethin 04:41, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :All evidence to the contrary being what, exactly? The fact that he's called a shaman? Oh my! What overwhelming evidence! And what is there really to counter it? Nothing, really. Just the fact that, when asked what being a krogan shaman entitles, Shaman doesn't mention anything about religion. Just the fact the Wrex describes the krogan as not being spiritual people. Again, observation supersedes supposition. Your "rather first-hand knowledge of shamanistic societies) gives you no more insight than my rather first-hand knowledge of meritocracies and military-based social structures gives me special insight into the turians. SpartHawg948 04:47, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :: Shaman admits to being in tune with the spirit of the Krogan, thier warrior, agressive nature. The role of a shaman traditionally. He is the overseer of various Rites, also the role of someone of some spiritual importance. Does this mean they are religious? No. Does it suggest that there is some sort of spirituallity that is part of thier culture? Yes. How important is this to thier culture? Varies between clans/leaders. His role is obviously important enough that he is willing to endure great pain, both mental and physical, twice a day to maintain his position. This also speaks of more than minor importance. Is this worth pointing out specifically on the krogan page? I believe so. Skelethin 04:55, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Okay. All that sounds well and good, although the spiritual bit still seems pretty speculative. However, that isn't what you added in to the article. You added "The existence of Shaman, both his name and his apparant importance to his clan, show some semblance of religious beliefs. Any further cultural significance is unknown." into the Religion section. SpartHawg948 05:01, April 12, 2010 (UTC) : As I mentioned at first, I am havingg trobule puttin it in words that say what I mean, without having too many... offensive? connotations. I was trying to mean something closer to my last statement in that line, and obviously failed. I view 'spiritual significance' as a relious aspect of society, thus were it would be placed on the page. If you can explain it better, please do. I will try to come up with a better version if someone else does not. I will post it here first, though. Skelethin 05:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC) As of now, I've put "The rite of passage and all other rites and traditions are preserved by the clan shaman. The shaman must undergo lengthy and torturous rites to assume the position, and is required to give up his name. Because of this level of commitment, the shaman is one of the most respected members of a clan." into the Culture and Government" section. SpartHawg948 05:15, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Speaking of religion, aren't there several planets named after krogan deities? This means that at least some krogan have at one time had a polytheistic faith. 12:17, June 7, 2010 (UTC) Female krogan Does anyone have the source for them being treated as war prizes? 02:01, April 19, 2010 (UTC) : I dont think that is true, i havent heard it. ralok 02:07, April 19, 2010 (UTC) ::Fertile Females were being fought over, they were not war prizes in the traditional sense. In the "as to the victor goes the spoiles of war" context, then yes they are war prizes. However again they were being fought over, at lease until Wrex came along, if he survived that is. Wreav, not so much. Lancer1289 02:09, April 19, 2010 (UTC) : They aren't War Prizes so much as objects of contention. Different clans would fight over the mere chance to mate with a female, which is why female clans came to be. Given that even the female krogan are still krogan... i imagine that they would be more than willing to take up arms against those who they deemed 'unworthy' so they would never truely be 'war prizes'. Skelethin 02:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC) Females from Clan Weyrloc (sp?) were absorbed into Clan Urdnot after Weyrloc was destroyed by a proxy of Urdnot (Shepard), and as was pointed out above, they are fought over. In that sense, I can see them being 'spoils of war'. Maybe not 'war prizes' per se, but I could definitely see spoils of war. SpartHawg948 04:18, April 19, 2010 (UTC) But does anyone know where this info comes from?--HighTime 12:04, April 19, 2010 (UTC) : Tuchanka. The conversations with Wrex highlights a lot of it. I think Shaman has something to say about it too, but I don't remember for sure. But most of the details are from talking to Wrex about his plans for the krogan, and how it came about. Skelethin 12:47, April 19, 2010 (UTC) Style problem Near the end of hte biology section it claims that a handful of females pre genophage could produce the modern equivalent of a devision, my issue is not with the statement itself as the facts seem pretty well researched, but with hte usage of the word modern, is this in context of mass effect modern, or nowadays modern, i was under the impression that hte articles took an in universe point of view concerning this sort of subject, so wouldnt it be more appropriate to say that they could produce the equivalent of a 20th century devision or whatnot, and on this subject what is the mass effect standard for a devision anyways, does anything say this. ralok 09:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC) :Division. Again, that's division. No 'E'. As for the modern equivalent of a division, it already says the 'modern equivalent' of a division. I see no need to make it redundant by adding 20th century. (Aside from the fact that it'd actually be 21st century) As for numbers, I don't think any specifics have been presented for what a Systems Alliance division consists of numerically (since there likely isn't any 'Mass Effect standard' for a division- each race probably has their own standard, just as today there is no set 'standard' for how many men are in a division), but as for modern standards, a US Army division is between 17,000-21,000 soldiers. I'd assume that this is what is referred to when they say a 'modern division', as it can't be a reference to Canada (where BioWare is from) as Canada has no divisions in its military (I say military because, of course, Canada doesn't have an army. Not trying to knock them, just stating fact). SpartHawg948 09:21, April 21, 2010 (UTC) :If we're talking "fact," Canada does have an army. It happens to be about 1/20th the size of the American army, but it's there. "The Canadian Army" as a name was dropped after WWII, but an army as a noun is just a land force, and Canada has about seventy thousand active soldiers. I'd rather leave this stopped here, though, because this wiki is about Mass Effect. Feel free to remove my somewhat-more-than-necessarily-indignant defense of my country if you remove your parenthetical not-knocking. 11:40, August 11, 2010 (UTC) See that is a sign of just how old i am getting, i cannot even remember what century it is anymore, that is just sad. So this division info is from ingame then, because if it is i have no problem, my only problem was with how it was being stated i couldnt tell if it was using modern in context of mass effect or right now, see what im saying. ralok 09:35, April 21, 2010 (UTC) Klingon Krogans remind me so much of Klingons! It's really cool especially since the actor that plays Commander Worf in Star Trek voices a Korgan in Mass effect 2.Tau'ri 21300 04:42, June 5, 2010 (UTC) :Indeed. Although I just want to take the opportunity since we're on the subject to ask people (since I'm afraid it might start again) to not add trivia about how the krogan are supposedly a reference to Klingons, or to re-add the related but even more inexplicable tidbit about how Grunt is supposedly remarkably similar to Kahless. It just isn't true. But yes, it was awesome that Michael Dorn voiced a krogan. He was one of my favorite VAs of ME2, right up there with Michael Hogan (who voiced Captain Bailey), and Adam Baldwin (Kal'Reeger). SpartHawg948 04:56, June 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Even Marina Sirtis (Matriarch Benezia)! It's amazing to know that their still active.Tau'ri 21300 11:30, June 5, 2010 (UTC) :::That it is! :) SpartHawg948 19:48, June 5, 2010 (UTC) uplifted by salarians How much did the salarians uplifted the Krogan? Did they just gave better weapons and armors to them, or, what is more possible, they showed them how to build starships, use FTL engines and mass relays? The rachni had warships, and the krogans had to get to their worlds, so I think they had some warships. And they fought after the rachni war againts the salarians, so they must had some. :However if one would read the Codex it states that "When the salarians discovered them, the krogan were a brutal, primitive species struggling to survive a self-inflicted nuclear winter. The salarians culturally uplifted them, teaching them to use and build modern technology so they could serve as soldiers in the Rachni War." The krogan were violent and had no advanced tech until the salarians arrived. So it would appear that the salarians taught the krogan everything that is probably after 1950s era tech. Lancer1289 15:26, August 17, 2010 (UTC) hmm according to mass effect 2, the krogan didnt even have interplanetary travel within their own solar system. ralok 08:20, August 28, 2010 (UTC) Envoy from the female camp, aka Natorth Contrary to what seems to be a somewhat popular belief, Natorth, the envoy to Clan Urdnot from the female clan, is not a female. For any doubters, please refer to this video, specifically 2:35 into it. Wreav clearly identifies Natorth as being male, when he says "We have an envoy from the females in the camp right now. Name's Natorth. He can decide what to tell you about the females." (emphasis added) So yeah... Natorth appears to be a he, not a she. SpartHawg948 04:10, October 11, 2010 (UTC) :Are you sure that's Wrex because it sounds like Wreav to me? Also I think the subtitiles say Wreav but they are very hard to make out. Lancer1289 04:12, October 11, 2010 (UTC) ::So it is... my bad. I was focused on the dialogue, so I didn't notice the lack of wicked sweet facial scars. SpartHawg948 04:14, October 11, 2010 (UTC) :::Thought so, anyway nice find, I guess I missed that conversation with Wreav so nice find. Lancer1289 04:15, October 11, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yeah, I was sure that someone at some point confirmed that Natorth is a dude, and I was fortunate enough to find it in the very first walkthrough video I looked at, which is awesome since there were at least 5 (I think) Tuchanka walkthrough videos. To quote everybody's favorite turian, "Sometimes you get lucky." SpartHawg948 04:19, October 11, 2010 (UTC) Clan list This is just a list I've assembled of known krogan clans. I don't know how to incorporate it into the article at the moment (or even if a section for clans would be appropriate), so I'll just stick it here for now and come back to it later. Note: We are aware of only four of these clans explicitly: Urdnot, Weyrloc, Gatatog, and Hailot (which is detailed somewhat by the CDN). The other six clans (Bragus, Drau, Ganar, Quash, Ravanor, Rox) can be presumed to exist, but we only know of them through krogan names provided by the CDN (or Codex in the case of Ganar); we don't know who leads these clans or where they are based, unlike with the first four. *Clan Bragus - Bragus Thul is a quarterback in a football team on Earth. *Clan Drau - Drau Sorze is a "ruzad", or "judge", in the Republic of Ghurst on Tuchanka. *Clan Ganar - Ganar Wrang, an exiled krogan battlemaster, founded the Blood Pack mercenary group. *Clan Gatatog - led by Gatatog Uvenk on Tuchanka. *Clan Hailot - clan leader Hailot Wrund controlled Garvug prior to the abortive corporatist invasion in 2185. *Clan Quash - Quash Hurgott is a Blood Pack commander. *Clan Ravanor - Ravanor Tusk is a krogan warlord. *Clan Rox - Rox Ghuli is a heavyweight fighter in the Galactic Combat Sports League. *Clan Urdnot *Clan Weyrloc So maybe I'll add this into the article later if deemed fit, maybe it'll stay here. -- Commdor (Talk) 00:22, November 7, 2010 (UTC) :I don't see why we shouldn't put it in as it is relevent to the article. Since we know how krogan names are constructed, as in Urdnot Wrex, I really can't see any stretching here. I think it would be a fine addition. Lancer1289 01:14, November 7, 2010 (UTC) ::If I can think of an expository paragraph or something (I don't want it to be a cold list, like how Notable ___ sections are set up), I might just add it in. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:31, November 7, 2010 (UTC) :::I like the sound of "Krogan Clans" for a heading. As to an opening paragraph: "The krogan live in a tribal society with many different clans spread across Tuchanka and elsewhere. Some clans are small, others large, and still others somewhere in between. However each clan has something to offer to krogan society like different rights and customs among other things." That's what I got, and I know that could use some work, but not bad for 5 mintues of work right? Lancer1289 02:11, November 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::In between is two words. Inbetween is not a word. Just throwing that out there. Also, not sure about the last sentence. The "however" is confusing, and I can't see the relevance of it to the topic at hand. If the intent is to go into more detail about the clans, maybe. But we don't have the info to do that. SpartHawg948 02:20, November 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::Fixed and like I said, this could probably use some work, or a rewrite unsure. Anyway expanding on what I have, or deleting sections is better than starting from scratch, unless that is necessary. Lancer1289 02:25, November 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::(Edit conflict x2) Yeah, I was planning on something in that general vein. It was going to be a subsection of Culture. I'll worry about it tomorrow, though, I'm wiped out and I still have to go back through the CDN to make sure I didn't miss any others. -- Commdor (Talk) 02:26, November 7, 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure if I'm really comfortable with people seeing krogan with what appear to be two names just assuming the first part is a clan name, so therefore that must be a clan. I'm kind of referring specifically to this latest one, "Clan Khel - Khel Burrem is a competitor found on Pinnacle Station." How do we know these are clan names, and not titles? We know that krogan do employ titles in their native tongue, such as ruzad and krannt. If someone had seen, for example, "Ruzad Torsk" or "Krannt Uvenk" before we learned what they meant, they'd likely have assumed, incorrectly, that there is a Clan Ruzad, or a Clan Krannt. I'm thinking we need to limit it to confirmed cases where we know the clan exists. We know Urdnot is a clan. Ditto for Weyrloc, and Gatatog, and Hailot, and Drau, and it seems likely Ganar and Ravanor are also clans. These other ones, though... Bragus, Khel, Quash, Rox... we're really just assuming that they must be clans based on... not a whole lot, really. Before just removing them, though, I figured I'd bring it up here. SpartHawg948 04:47, November 11, 2010 (UTC) :I think clan Quash could stay. It says in the CDN report "Blood Pack commander Quash Hurgott", so I highly doubt the "Quash" part is also a title of some sort and not a clan name. But otherwise I've got no significant objections. You might need to add one of those hidden notice things (like so: ; I can never remember the actual term for that) that says to check this thread, though, because I foresee other users re-adding these names. -- Commdor (Talk) 05:27, November 11, 2010 (UTC) ::Ok... that's a decent enough justification for Quash. I'm a little concerned about non-clan names, as isn't there something mentioned in ME2 on Tuchankha about clanless krogan? I'm assuming (all it is, an assumption) that these krogan would also still likely have two names, possibly even something used in place of a clan name to denote that they are clanless, but that's getting nitpicky. I mean, we have to draw a line somewhere, right? Additionally, thanks for the embedded text lesson, but as it so happens, this is one of the few "technical" (if you want to call it that) aspects I am familiar with! :P SpartHawg948 05:36, November 11, 2010 (UTC) :::Ah, "embedded text". I will (likely unsuccessfully) try to remember that. Anywho, I didn't doubt you were familiar with embedded text, but I wanted to be absolutely clear about what I was talking about ("hidden notice things" probably isn't the most informative of descriptions). -- Commdor (Talk) 05:54, November 11, 2010 (UTC) ::::No, I got you. And I will admit, if I had been at all unsure what you were referring to, the example did help. It stands out a bit so my eyes leapt to it first, and I instantly knew what you were referring to. :) SpartHawg948 06:30, November 11, 2010 (UTC) I've added Clan Jorgal and Clan Jurdon. Jorgal is mentioned by Wrex when he says that Clan Jorgal has the longest breeding line. The scout commander mentions Clan Jurdon when discussing protecting Urdnot food reserves. Ninsegtari 03:20, November 12, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah... that really needed to be added into the article with the clan names, to avoid it being undone, which it just was... SpartHawg948 03:22, November 12, 2010 (UTC) Clan Talyth was mentioned in CDN. They recieved money and blueprints in building a dreadnought from Ellis Valterus, turian lawmaker Cerberus Daily News - February 2010.Typhoonstorm95 20:47, December 7, 2010 (UTC) Also Ratch mention a clan about how mad a clan leader was at the person who brought the pyjak infestation. It was Clan Forsan.Typhoonstorm95 20:56, December 7, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, but I'm not really sure that "the Talyth clan" (as that's what is referred to, not "Clan Talyth") constitutes sufficient proof that the clan is Clan Talyth. Talyth could easily be a city, settlement, region, etc, much like how modern news stories use locations, such as (using a hypothetical gang in the nearby and unpleasant city of Oakland) "the Oakland gang was caught in possession of ___". See what I'm driving at? Now, if the other one is explicitly mentioned as Clan Forsan, then cool. That'll work. But I'm not sold on the Talyth clan. SpartHawg948 21:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC) I see your point. And for Clan Forsan, Ratch says "One ball of pyjak dung nailed the leader of Clan Forsan across the forehead. That's apparently grounds for execution".Typhoonstorm95 21:34, December 7, 2010 (UTC) :Fair enough! Lousy pyjaks... :P SpartHawg948 21:40, December 7, 2010 (UTC) ::I find that argument to be pedantic, but it's not a point I'm willing to die for (my preferred means of measuring how important something is, along with "How useful would it be in the post-apocalypse?"), so I'll dispel my plans of adding in "the Raik clan". I'm starting to wonder how relevant it really is to list every known krogan clan. It's like listing the surnames of all the other ME characters on their respective race pages. I'd say we need to raise the criteria for inclusion on this list, but I can't think of a good standard. -- Commdor (Talk) 21:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC) :I don't see how it's the the least bit pedantic. If you care to justify your comment, I'm all ears. I can actually give a somewhat better real-world example of why assuming "the Talyth clan" is Clan Talyth could very well be erroneous, but it would involve knowledge of the traditional Irish clan/family structure, so I used a slightly poorer but example that was nevertheless easier to relate to. So yeah, if you find it "pedantic", please feel free to elaborate. SpartHawg948 22:08, December 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, it's all the assumptions that would come with it: that not every instance of "clan" next to "krogan name" when appearing in the context of krogan culture is referring to a krogan clan; that BioWare's writers would intentionally apply real-life complexities and shades of meaning into these minute details; that the average gamer would actually notice or appreciate such distinctions. All things considered, this is fiction we're dealing with, and you can't hang it side by side with real life and expect an exact match. If the creators of the fiction don't go to some length to point out these details, we can't say for sure they exist anywhere beyond our own interpretations. Occam's Razor tells me "Talyth clan" or "Raik clan" are simply two more krogan clans; if we say they could mean something else just because of how the words are placed, where does it end? -- Commdor (Talk) 22:48, December 7, 2010 (UTC) :With everything not explicitly identified as a clan (i.e. "Clan ___") not being automatically assumed to be a clan. Makes perfect sense from an anti-speculation perspective. Occam's Razor is an assumption. Assumption is speculation. Speculation is inadmissible. I don't see the issue here. You say I can't hang the situation side-by-side with real life and expect an exact match. Well, I can take the words at face value and say "This is kind of vague. There could be other interpretations", can't I? Again though, your hypothetical "where does it end" has a simple answer that has been consistently applied since this wiki's inception. It ends with anything not known as a fact not being stated as a fact. SpartHawg948 23:05, December 7, 2010 (UTC) ::I think it's reading far too much into it to say "Raik clan =/= Clan Raik" and common sense to say "Raik clan = Clan Raik". In the context of krogan culture, I don't see any second meaning for "clan", I don't see how "Raik clan" can be anything other than "Clan Raik" unless BioWare explicitly tells us. Nothing vague about it. You're saying "Raik clan" can have other meanings so we can't automatically say this is Clan Raik, but are you basing this on actual evidence from the games? From where I'm standing you're speculating; you see vagueness and room for interpretation where I see none. We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:37, December 7, 2010 (UTC) :I also don't see any possible second meaning for the word clan. That is why, as you'll note, I never suggested any such thing. I merely suggested that "the Talyth clan" could, in addition to possibly meaning "Clan Talyth", mean the clan from Talyth. Note that I never (not even once) mentioned "Raik clan". Not sure then why you say "You're saying "Raik clan" can have other meanings so we can't automatically say this is Clan Raik". I said nothing of the sort. And I would ask in turn what actual evidence from the games you are basing your position on. When said evidence is lacking, we go with the path that doesn't involve speculation, even "common sense" speculation. One final question, and this one I really, really would like answered. You say "From where I'm standing you're speculating". How? How am I speculating by not including information that we don't have explicit confirmation of? How is this in any way speculation? I am not stating that "the Talyth clan" doesn't mean "Clan Talyth". I'm merely saying in the absence of concrete proof, we should not insert information based on assumptions. It's not like I'm demanding that alternate explanations be posited as potential fact in-article, merely saying we don't know for sure, so let's leave it out. The vast majority of mentions of krogan clans do follow the "Clan ___" format, so when we see one that doesn't follow this format, I tend to be a little skittish about foisting our own interpretations of the wording onto it. So I ask again, how am I being speculative by seeking to avoid speculation? SpartHawg948 23:59, December 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Alrighty, having re-read the CDN report several times (and eaten dinner), I can now see what you were pointing out in your original comment way up top. I can't say that's the conclusion I'd make after reading the report for the first time (because I obviously didn't make it), but it's valid. This whole time I thought you were pulling this other meaning stuff pretty much out of thin air. Obtuseness on my part it would seem. But to answer your big "How?", I regarded (because of how I interpreted the report) your statement that Talyth (and the similarly-situated Raik, which I used as an example because it looked equivalent and came to mind faster) could have another meaning aside from a clan name as based on speculation that there were other meanings. I didn't understand where your talk of other meanings were coming from; the way I read the report, Talyth could only have been a clan name, never confused as a location (a perceptual blind spot, perhaps). Boiled down, my bad. This is another link in a growing chain of mistakes I've made recently, for which I apologize. At least I haven't made a fool of myself over something important. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC) :Fair enough. I probably got a little more hot and bothered than I needed to as well. It happens from time to time. The frustration at not being understood properly combined with a bit of tension regarding a then-upcoming (since passed) Environmental Law final/getting my big paper back (got a 100%, with special mention because "my understanding of the District, Federal Appeals, and Supreme Court procedural process was very good." - demonstrating my ability to pull a fast one over on my professor, who just happens to be a lawyer!) conspired to make me a little crankier than usual. No harm done. It's probably safe to say we both could have handled it a little better, and at the very least, I know I could have probably handled it a little better... SpartHawg948 03:36, December 8, 2010 (UTC) Could we add Clan Jorgal and Clan Jurdon to the list? 23:26, December 28, 2010 (UTC) Titled Sections I don't know about some of you, and while I recognize (and deeply enjoy) the fact that in-article descriptions of species and what not are not capitalized like typical sci-fi, am I the only one who doesn't think 'Rise of the krogan' looks a little bit odd, as appearances go? --Aryn2382 15:06, June 5, 2011 (UTC) :I honestly don't, nor do I think it should be capitalized. Lancer1289 15:10, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::Nope. The reason they aren't capitalized is because BioWare specified that they aren't capitalized. And BioWare is the ultimate authority here. SpartHawg948 18:20, June 5, 2011 (UTC) :::Heh, no worries. Just tweaked my brain a little for the subsection 'title' there, as otherwise, yeah, I completely agree with the lowercase otherwise. "Let a Thousand Die in a Clutch!" So, I understand Warlord Okeer suggests that krogan females can birth a thousand young in one go. So do they lay eggs? Or is it actually possible for them to birth a thousand live young? What bothers me is that Mordin says the genophage "prevented foetal development of nervous system". I thought that only live young are referred to as foetuses. Therefore something doesn't add up here. Either krogan don't lay eggs or this was a writing oversight. Tali's no.1 fan 13:17, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :We don't know what it is, and right now it is all speculation as we don't know much about the krogan and whether or not they lay eggs or not. Also don't forget Okeer could be referring to the fact that perhaps krogan and salarians refer to them as fetus as we do know salarians lay eggs. Lancer1289 15:02, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::Could you elaborate on that last sentence? Tali's no.1 fan 15:19, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::I thought it was quite clear, but apparently not. Because salarians do lay eggs, they could refer to their young like mammalian species in that their young developing in the eggs are referred to as fetuses. We don't call them that, but they could and that is how it translates. Since we don't know if the krogan lay eggs or not, if they do, then they could do the same thing. Lancer1289 15:27, June 10, 2011 (UTC) It would have been clearer if you'd said Mordin instead of Okeer. Tali's no.1 fan 15:37, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :I've done some research and I doubt translator software would make us hear "foetal" as opposed to "embryonic", since that is how we would refer to organisms developing in eggs. If salarians and krogan do say foetuses, would translator software translate dialogue into a format we can recognise? Or would it translate literally? I guess it is all speculation, but I'd go with my first suggestions: krogan don't actually lay eggs, or there was a writing oversight. Tali's no.1 fan 18:20, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::And you are applying standards from modern communication software. Last time I checked, we hasn't encountered aliens yet, and we again don't know if krogan lay eggs, but we do know salarians do. Lancer1289 18:39, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :::My research was into embryos vs foetuses, not modern translator software. So you are heavily mistaken. Anyway, I stand by my original theories. Tali's no.1 fan 13:39, June 11, 2011 (UTC) ::::And you are applying human terms for what these things are called. Perhaps in the native krogan and salarian languages, it translates to fetus as that is the equivalent in our languages. Lancer1289 14:57, June 11, 2011 (UTC) :::::But foetus is not the equivalent in our language. Embryo is, as I already said. I look at it like this (but I'm speculating here): Whatever krogans and salarians call their unborn would most likely translate into whatever we would call unborn egg-hatchlings (embryos). To me, that seems the most sensible way translation would work. So if krogan hatch from eggs it doesn't make sense for us to hear Mordin say "foetal". Tali's no.1 fan 13:59, June 12, 2011 (UTC)